Alia's Reviews > I Who Have Never Known Men
I Who Have Never Known Men
by
by
This has to be one of the most reactionary works I have read lately. The word feminist was thrown around about this book and I was expecting the hit along the way, but was massively disappointed. My bad. In the end, expectations aside, it never quite took off, lots of interesting formations to fly splendidly … just crashing.
To be honest, the more I think about the book, my displeasure grows, so I wanted to get it off my chest, especially after reading Earthlings by Sayaka Murata. It was a funky connection, because I see both books dealing with the same issue (surprise!) of conformity in very different ways and degrees of success.
Some parts are beautifully written, heartfelt moments here and there, the mood was smoothly sustained, but the particularities were a mess and underneath, troubling. I get the despair about being the last of a civilization, the tortured path each woman walked, the years of imprisonment, but grouping and mixing the same despair with the impossibility of motherhood, being without a male partner… wtf? Yeah, let´s just die without boyfriends. Ok, that is partially unfair, but really, it is ridiculous to read that apparently women only can develop a meaningful connection with men, that relationships formed within the women are just empty substitutes, both sexual and non-sexual. Apparently, gays and bisexuals don’t really exist and there is nothing to find without a heterosexual romantic/sexual relationship... nothing at all.
Just the able bodied survive, I am all in favor of euthanasia and no one who wants to avoid terrible pain should be forced to endure it, but every time someone had a problem… better die. Without men, there is no joy or comfort in creativity, in a peaceful existence, being alone is the worst it can happen, yes, they do stuff around, but just… meh. It draws the idea that the majority of these women had a dimmed intellect… because unknown reasons and yet, they suffer an existential anguish that doesn’t exactly fit and the simple pleasures of a simple mind are negated. I am not expecting the heavenly utopia of some feminist SF, just not this… poverty. I would find it equally ridiculous if it was men instead of women.
I have to stop now, because there are no more stars of rating to remove left. I am having trouble leaving one, just for how some parts were described, the never-spoiling-frozen-meat and how hard I laughed when the young girl recalls being told that only a penis can take your virginity away. After the laugh, part of the book´s core is revealed.
Fun fact. It came to mind the book The Memory Police by Yōko Ogawa on how it achieved what I Who Have Never Known Men couldn’t regarding the mysterious circumstances surrounding the plot.
To be honest, the more I think about the book, my displeasure grows, so I wanted to get it off my chest, especially after reading Earthlings by Sayaka Murata. It was a funky connection, because I see both books dealing with the same issue (surprise!) of conformity in very different ways and degrees of success.
Some parts are beautifully written, heartfelt moments here and there, the mood was smoothly sustained, but the particularities were a mess and underneath, troubling. I get the despair about being the last of a civilization, the tortured path each woman walked, the years of imprisonment, but grouping and mixing the same despair with the impossibility of motherhood, being without a male partner… wtf? Yeah, let´s just die without boyfriends. Ok, that is partially unfair, but really, it is ridiculous to read that apparently women only can develop a meaningful connection with men, that relationships formed within the women are just empty substitutes, both sexual and non-sexual. Apparently, gays and bisexuals don’t really exist and there is nothing to find without a heterosexual romantic/sexual relationship... nothing at all.
Just the able bodied survive, I am all in favor of euthanasia and no one who wants to avoid terrible pain should be forced to endure it, but every time someone had a problem… better die. Without men, there is no joy or comfort in creativity, in a peaceful existence, being alone is the worst it can happen, yes, they do stuff around, but just… meh. It draws the idea that the majority of these women had a dimmed intellect… because unknown reasons and yet, they suffer an existential anguish that doesn’t exactly fit and the simple pleasures of a simple mind are negated. I am not expecting the heavenly utopia of some feminist SF, just not this… poverty. I would find it equally ridiculous if it was men instead of women.
I have to stop now, because there are no more stars of rating to remove left. I am having trouble leaving one, just for how some parts were described, the never-spoiling-frozen-meat and how hard I laughed when the young girl recalls being told that only a penis can take your virginity away. After the laugh, part of the book´s core is revealed.
Fun fact. It came to mind the book The Memory Police by Yōko Ogawa on how it achieved what I Who Have Never Known Men couldn’t regarding the mysterious circumstances surrounding the plot.
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Reading Progress
October 21, 2022
– Shelved as:
to-read
October 21, 2022
– Shelved
March 31, 2023
–
Started Reading
March 31, 2023
–
0.53%
"'They often seem to feel the need to
emphasise that they wrote the book not out of vanity, but because someone
asked them to, and that they had thought about it long and hard before
accepting. How strange! It suggests that people were not avid to learn, and
that you had to apologise for wanting to convey your knowledge.'"
page
1
emphasise that they wrote the book not out of vanity, but because someone
asked them to, and that they had thought about it long and hard before
accepting. How strange! It suggests that people were not avid to learn, and
that you had to apologise for wanting to convey your knowledge.'"
April 1, 2023
–
1.6%
"'And now, racked
with sobs, I was forced to acknowledge too late, much too late, that I too
had loved, that I was capable of suffering and that I was human after all.'
😥"
page
3
with sobs, I was forced to acknowledge too late, much too late, that I too
had loved, that I was capable of suffering and that I was human after all.'
😥"
April 2, 2023
–
17.02%
"‘You have so little idea what it meant to have a destiny that you can’t
understand what it means to be deprived as we are.'"
page
32
understand what it means to be deprived as we are.'"
April 4, 2023
–
100%
"Joanna Russ would be thinking... What have you done to my utopia?!
And spouting a nonstop: huh? 🤭"
page
190
And spouting a nonstop: huh? 🤭"
April 4, 2023
–
100%
"Ok, I am ready, you can give me all that promised feminism... I feel it coming... any minute now..."
page
205
April 4, 2023
– Shelved as:
dystopia-apocalyptic
April 4, 2023
– Shelved as:
fantasy
April 4, 2023
– Shelved as:
science-fiction
April 4, 2023
–
Finished Reading
Comments Showing 1-50 of 63 (63 new)
message 1:
by
inciminci
(new)
Apr 22, 2023 09:49AM
Valid points, Alia, great review. This really sounds like it would suck, good thing I never added it :)
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I am kind of baffled, the reviews praise this book so much, you know? I usually encourage others to read the book for themselves, but I also wish for better books to read instead of this one. 🙈
Yeah I hate when that happens. I just recently read something similar which was praised as feminist horror and the message was that the mc was completely dominated and dependent from her husband, because "he loved her so much he knew her better than anyone else," even herself, yuck.Onwards to better books, my friend 😉
I really liked this one, but i agree with everything you said even though I really don’t want to haha. It’s definitely feminist from a nondisabled and straight perspective. I hadn’t really thought of your interpretation of queerness and instead took it as they were free from restraint and got to love one another however they chose. But…yeah, you’re so right 😭
inciminci wrote: "Yeah I hate when that happens. I just recently read something similar which was praised as feminist horror and the message was that the mc was completely dominated and dependent from her husband, b..."Ugh! I feel you, which one?
I get that sometimes expectations are very different, but when is just so contradictory... huh? hahahaha
Jassmine wrote: "Your reviews are always a treat! 😁"
hahahah Thanks ❤️
I had to get it out, or else my righteous fury will be consuming me 🙈
Alia wrote: "I had to get it out, or else my righteous fury will be consuming me 🙈"Yeah, that's the only healthy option! 😁
Reading on Wheels wrote: "I really liked this one, but i agree with everything you said even though I really don’t want to haha. It’s definitely feminist from a nondisabled and straight perspective. I hadn’t really thought ..."I thought about you when I wrote it, I didnt want to spoil the fun 🙈 But I also think we deserve better, you know? It is tricky, because it is touching and beautifully written, but even for straight and able bodied, we all deserve better, even without men, we have a human spirit. There is this quote of a lovely book we are reading (have you read The Voyages of Cinrak the Dapper?) that Jassmine shared:
Joy is political.
(...)
We tell joyful stories in times of fear to light the way in the dark, to document that history, to model the voices that need to be heard and the bodies that need to be seen, and to simply say no, you will not take our joy from us.
Alia wrote: "inciminci wrote: "Yeah I hate when that happens. I just recently read something similar which was praised as feminist horror and the message was that the mc was completely dominated and dependent f..."It was Full Immersion
@Alia: I also love the part "the bodies that need to be seen" in relation to the fact that the protagonist of the book is capybara 😂😂😂😂To the reviews: sometimes it just goes out easily and sometimes it doesn't... I'm currently really behind on my reviewing efforts too...
hahahah Capybaras need more exposure! I support it! 😂Yeah, It has been a bit stressing in my house and my focus has been awful, the reviews help me a bit, but when it is a messy moment... 🙈
Also I have the impression that it takes me a long time to write them hahahaha
We will catch up! 🐱👤!
Alia wrote: "hahahah Capybaras need more exposure! I support it! 😂"Definitely! We need more Capybara rep! (Especially lesbian capybara!) 🤭
Also I have the impression that it takes me a long time to write them hahahaha
It really depends for me... some are SO easy and quick and I just know exactly what I want to write. And some... are such pain!
I can’t say I share all your feelings about this book - but I’m so interested to see you also read it around the same time as Earthlings! Totally coincidentally (this book was a book club pick) I’ve also just read Earthlings.I guess the two books do share something of the same feeling - although I’d say there’s at least some comic absurdity to Earthling, while this is more disquieting and BLEAK. Also in some way similar settings, what I imagined to be kind of sprawling pastoral landscapes away from civilisation.
I share some of your frustrations, I cant necessarily see the feminist themes in this novel. I see it more as being about the meaningless of existence and survival.
Katherine wrote: "I can’t say I share all your feelings about this book - but I’m so interested to see you also read it around the same time as Earthlings! Totally coincidentally (this book was a book club pick) I’v..."Books are fun in that way! A lot of different takes with this book.
That´s wild! Reading also Earthlings hahahaha
Katherine wrote: "what I imagined to be kind of sprawling pastoral landscapes away from civilisation..."
That´s very cool, I like that.
I agree about it being more about the meaningless existence, I guess the younger reader me from the past would be thrilled with that. I am not sure to be honest why I felt such strong reactions.
One reviewer (who gave this a 3) said: "The older women have memories of life on Earth to remind them of their humanity – the narrator is, on the other hand, a blank slate, with no preconceived ‘social constructs’ apart from what she has vaguely gleaned from her fellow prisoners. She has to discover anew the meaning of an existence to which there appears to be no mapped-out purpose."TBH, the idea of having to map out your own purpose in general sounds great to me...because a lot of the scripts that people (especially women) get handed automatically kinda suck! I mean, sure it can trigger an existential crisis, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. And while avoiding the despair of meaninglessness in a prison bunker sounds hard, doing so while you're out in the wider world like building houses and finding food and doing that with your companions?
IDK, I feel like I might have an Alia-like reaction to this book (especially since I'm in a "I have the option not to date men, so I'm not gonna!...and honestly, I'm not even gonna try that hard on dating in general" kind of mood lately).
Emily wrote: "One reviewer (who gave this a 3) said: "The older women have memories of life on Earth to remind them of their humanity – the narrator is, on the other hand, a blank slate, with no preconceived ‘so..."Yep, yep! In a way, that clean slate status, turns in part to the old, like a longing for what you will not experience, which is understandable, but it could have been so much more and it wasn't.
I imagine you would be: huh?! Because it relies heavily in those "old" conceptions: motherhood, male partners, etc. Which... nothing wrong with that at all, but... like... other ways of living and purpose exist? It is just unimaginable in the book and it forgets the capacity of life for adaptation. Of, course, this was my take, you could see other stuff completely in the book.
Emily wrote: "....especially since I'm in a "I have the option not to date men, so I'm not gonna!...and honestly, I'm not even gonna try that hard on dating in general" kind of mood lately..."Support this! It might have be my exact mood lately too 🤭
thank you for this review, because this book had been highly praised but after reading the premise i was left with a very strange feeling as a queer woman. good to know the gut feeling was probably right
natia wrote: "thank you for this review, because this book had been highly praised but after reading the premise i was left with a very strange feeling as a queer woman. good to know the gut feeling was probably..."Sorry, I missed your comment! 🙈
Even after my ranty review, I am not fond of discouraging from reading a book (unless it is openly damaging), I would say that maybe that gut feeling is right (which I didnt have, I just went merrily into it hahahaha), but also, maybe you can find in it something as others have? Regardless, I think we can have better.
These thoughts are fair, but I do feel like a lot of them do have explanations. The women were all chosen intentionally, were of low education and primarily housewifes etc. They might have intentionally chosen women who wouldn’t have gay desires to be imprisoned w other women. I didn’t see the women later loving each other as simply a substitute for men- they are learning about themselves and perhaps some of them discovered their desire for women and a capacity to authentically love women in a new context. The book is from the POV of the author and it based on what she was taught from the few characters who taught her- perhaps some of those women really were bi gay etc. I do think the author could have intentionally put in representation though. I would keep in mind a 66 year old woman wrote this in the 90’s. This is coming from a bi women- I just think context here is important.
Emma wrote: "These thoughts are fair, but I do feel like a lot of them do have explanations. The women were all chosen intentionally, were of low education and primarily housewifes etc. They might have intentio..."Yeah, that might have an explanation, but the book doesn't give it. They could have intentionally chosen married women, but how to know about desires? Even without previous same sex experiences. Some married and partnered up are... wild! 😅 And the need for companionship can be a very strong motivator.
About the other women maybe discovering new context, that´s true, we are seeing things from the MC perspective, but what took me there is that the general mood of despair and purposelessness in the rest of the women is mentioned. Did you have another feeling of that while reading?
It should be considered the age and time of the author, that´s very true. It just felt weird as acknowledgment of same sex pairings did happen in the story, but nothing else was done with that.
I disagree with the interpretation that the author is saying that female relationships are empty or hollow and that some of these women die of despair because of a lack of men. I interpreted it as there is despair and things feel hollow because there is no future! There’s no reproduction, no chance for anything to matter in the long term. It’s not an anti-gay novel, I think it’s a novel about what it means to be human and how we make meaning in our lives.
Liz wrote: "I disagree with the interpretation that the author is saying that female relationships are empty or hollow and that some of these women die of despair because of a lack of men. I interpreted it as ..."Mmmm.... I didnt think it was antigay, but queer erasing. What I see differently is that you need no reproduction for your life to have meaning. I mean, I am happy that a lot of women find motherhood fulfilling, that having a continuous legacy is meaningful for them. By those optics, I would agree, but in a wider view, there is meaning in your own life, even without reproduction or a long term thingy, precisely as you say "what it means to be human and how we make meaning in our lives."
Hmm. I've definitely read other sci-fi that deals a bit with the psychological effects of being the last generation of humans...and there would certainly be something melancholic about that, and it would take away certain forms of meaning (like the things we do "for posterity"). If (as the discussion here implies; I haven't read this book myself) that is due here to a lack of men, though, that idea does get a little muddied compared to, say, all genders being present but people going sterile due to radiation. You know, because it would be hard to separate that from the idea of needing MEN.
Emily wrote: "Hmm. I've definitely read other sci-fi that deals a bit with the psychological effects of being the last generation of humans...and there would certainly be something melancholic about that, and it..."Yep, exactly. I went along with the doom vibe along a chunk of the book, but it just was all tangled up so tightly together that eventually it started to bother me. I understand the melancholy and despair of being isolated in a place, but jumping from one to another thing as it was the same, nope for me. Not sure if it is very necessary to say, that it is not the actual end of (maybe I should have put the spoiler tags before? 😅)(view spoiler)
Idk, I am slowly forgetting the book, so its not that I feel so confident of the book contents as before, just the strong impressions that I had remain clear.
The book touched on romantic partnerships developed between some of the women.. Anyway, our narrator was curious about what she did not know, men. All she knew was her relationships to the women around her who proved to her what love is without that aspect, despite the fact that procreation cannot happen without men. I think with the last sentence of the book, it drives home that her yearning to live was without the notion that she could save the masses should she find a mate to have a child with. She found purpose in just learning her own humanity.
Maddy wrote: "The book touched on romantic partnerships developed between some of the women..."Yeah, very sanitarily, very discreet, like with gloves. And yeah, the mc was heterosexual, so it is very understandable where her curiosity lies and she indeed had found a purpose and a way to feed her curiosity. I think that both perspectives can be found in the same book, it is our interpretation of the themes and how they are presented that can take us to different places.
Jackie wrote: "Omg exactly! I don’t understand the (many!) positive reviews of this book"hahahah I think it is understandable, different things speak to different people. But I also felt surprised of how many regarded it so highly and not many didn't.
Su_enchanted wrote: "I rated this book 5 stars, but I agree with your review very much."Oh, I love this. It is a very curious little book indeed!
Kate wrote: "Idk I definitely thought many of the partnerships among the women were genuine so I didn’t find it to be queer erasure or anti-gay. Harpman was straight so maybe she didn’t get it- but as a queer p..."Yeah, very demure, very mindful. 🤭
But, seriously, I understand that you can see it that way and the mc interests were different indeed.
Did you forget that there are lesbian relationships in this book? They didn't feel hopeless because there weren't any men specifically, but rather because they were in a dystopian wasteland with very few resources, living a monotonous existence. The main character seemed to be straight (or at least there was no one her age to have a romantic relationship with) so of course she would be sad to never experience a romantic relationship. Also with the euthanasia thing, it wasn't that they killed anyone who was disabled. There are several instances where they do their best to continue the life of others who were aging or disabled. zb. They carried Dorothy after she could no longer walk. She only did this when the person was in so much pain they asked her for it.
There are some valid things to criticise about this book. It was written quite awhile ago and that shows, but your critique lacks basic comprehension of the text.
Seairra wrote: "Did you forget that there are lesbian relationships in this book? They didn't feel hopeless because there weren't any men specifically, but rather because they were in a dystopian wasteland with ve..."I wrote in my review:
(view spoiler)
About the euthanasia, I wrote "better die", not "better kill them".
Anyway, that´s MY subjective opinion, as most reviews are, you don't have to agree with it and that's the beauty of things. It isn't a very obscure opinion either, but sure, my lack of basic comprehension of the text should be noted, the world is a better place now :D
But that’s the thing; in the end she does discover HERSELF in the mirror and a kind of self love - that is amazing.
Reader wrote: "But that’s the thing; in the end she does discover HERSELF in the mirror and a kind of self love - that is amazing."Yeah. I guess it didn't do much at that point for me.
I think this misses the point of the book. It is not just about love with men, though that's the name. The narrator mentions herself that she has known love all her life, through the women around her. She realised too late that there is all sorts of love that can be abundant, not just with men. But of course, she's going to explore her own sexuality as a woman who realises she's attracted to men.







